Shocked? Not really…
Writing by shinda on Monday, 21 of August , 2006
As many of you may or may not have heard, there was some rawkus in the UK over the weekend that saw a group of individuals hospitalize members from another. Undoubtedly many are shocked at such brazen - “Sikh on Sikh” violence, but from the sounds of it, wasn’t this all a long time coming?
Firstly I’m not condoning the violence, although I’m not against the use of violence to accomplish a means, I do hold that violence should remain a last resort, and a certain level of thought / care needs to be taken before one chooses to cross that line, because rarely is it possible to undo such damage. In other words, once you cross that line, there’s no crossing back, so it better be worth it.
Now to the real flesh of the topic, as to why was this all a long time coming. I need to make it clear now that I’m not involved in any way with the Sikh Student camp in the UK, never been there, don’t personally know anyone who has, so everything I do know about it, for or against comes from third party sources.
Having talked to various people, my understanding of the Sikh Student camp emerged out of the old BOSS Student Camps when the UK Nihang faction (Niddar Singh and crew), were removed from taking part in any shape or form. This led to the creation of the Sikh Student camps which offered what it and those who support the camps claimed to be, a diverse outlook on Sikhi. Now I don’t know how much of an influence Niddar Singh or his minions have on the actual camp but if it’s anything like the views expressed on their website, then we all know how diverse they can be. Also, Niddar Singh and company are no strangers to violence, with news of fights that occur between members of his own group or that of opposing factions emerging yearly whether it be in the UK or stretching as far as India. However, to this degree it has been refuted that Niddar Singh and company have nothing to do with the camps, so I guess we’ll just have to take their (those saying such things) word for it, [to the contrary] that these two “beefs” are not connected.
Many individuals in recent times have expressed a disgust with the camps, over videos and images that have emerged on the net depicting individuals in a negative light. Whether it was of organizers’ [can’t say if they are or not] doing there best to imitate Pac, or dropping verses like Chamkila, it’s fair to say that not everyone was happy, and felt that these few reasons alone were a just means to call for a boycott.
I would have to give this one to the defendants [Sikh Students], simply because you can’t hold the organizers responsible for the actions of a few. The singing and dancing video apparently was done for jokes, and it seems that people are blowing it out of proportion to justify their own means, as for the pictures, not exactly capturing individuals at there finest moments, but again I’ll give some of these images the benefit of the doubt that they were being done for jokes, whether or not you share in their sense of humor I’ll leave to you.
What raises an alarm with me however are the allegations of harassment and lude behavior towards the Bibian at the camp. These are always serious allegations that require serious attention, but just posting ones claims on message boards does seem rather redundant, as it rarely serves a purpose in solving the problem.
Now apart from the rest the Sikh Student camp has faced many of these allegations and offered assurances that mistakes of the past will be corrected, yet it seems that they have gone against their word, based on various articles. If this is the case then one needs to wonder where their [those behind the camp’s] motives lie.
Especially with all the press against the camp one can’t be so naive to the fact that there isn’t more then what meets the eye. After all for the major jathebandi’s to ask for a boycott of the camp, something serious must be wrong.
Taking all the above into consideration, its hard not to imagine why individuals would want to see the camp closed, but apart from that there’s also the Gurmat aspect of it.
Now I’m not against a camp which promotes a Jatha’s own view or slant on Gurmat, after all every camps views on Gurmat will be slanted in some manor one way or another. At the same time though, I’ve never heard of a single Jatha which condones alcohol, cutting of hair, and discouraging people from keeping rehit. Whether they stress the importance of keeping rehit at there camps or not, [has been said that Rehit isn’t over emphasized to prevent from scaring away the new comers], discouraging people from rehit is absurd, which has been the case reported by those against the camp.
Looking at the above its easy to find why those against the Sikh Student camp would feel frustrated by the actions [or lack thereof] on the part of organizers to fix these problems. Would this constitute their right to bomb someone’s car or jumping them in there driveway, probably not, but it does help serve a better picture of what’s really going on.
Lastly, are the victims really the victims? No doubt they are the ones who are suffering from the attacks, but how innocent are they to the whole ordeal? After all, imagine if they simply challenged those against the camp by saying something like, “we’re doing this camp one way or another, we dare you try and stop us” or something to that effect, can you really hold it against someone for calling their bluff?
Again, I’m not here trying to condone the violence, because like I said earlier violence has a time and place, which I really don’t feel it did in this situation, but to also paint things black and white, having a good guy and bad guy just doesn’t seem fair, since clearly there is a lot of grey area in between.
Finally, in-fighting amongst sikh groups is nothing new, nor the violence between them. There has been in-fighting since the times of the Guru’s, and the ways of the elder generations is no deep dark secret. End of the day, we do need to stand up against those who go against the very rudimentary principles of Sikhi, however we do need to leave some flexibility and room for rationality and the ability to agree to disagree. With all the problems facing us, we need to pick and choose our fights, and the amount of energy we exert into each carefully, otherwise we will quickly find ourselves drained with nothing left. Conflicts at the grassroots levels such as Sikhi camps are especially dis-heartening as it sets all parties back when trying to convince parents and youth that they are genuinely interested in helping the kids. One needs look no further then the Bugga camps that used to happen in Ontario in the early 90’s. Ever since the corruption and exposure of those camps parents have had to take that extra vigilance before sending there kids to any camp [which they should be doing anyway’s], but when it comes to those who just don’t have the time, saying no and keeping the kids at home becomes just that much easier.
Category: Sikhi
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car park from ottawa from 
Made Monday, 21 of August , 2006 at 3:38 pm
wow no comments yet. alrite i shall begin:
i agree that we should not let petty differences get in the way of khalistan. good post. balzey #1.
A Team from
Made Monday, 21 of August , 2006 at 4:26 pm
If the sikh camp peoples need us just holla…OUR rates aren’t high…
BA (FROM THE A TEAM)
Violence has no place in Sikhi!
“I’m not against the use of violence to accomplish a means”
This to me is not the Sikh way.
Guru Nanak said (and we read this EVERY MORNING) “man jeetay jag jeet”
“Conquer your mind and you will conquer the world”
Before conquering your mind any “means” one might wish to accomplish with “violence” is going to be pure manmat.
There is no precedence for violence. Sikhs have never acted out of agression. Anger is one of the five vices for us to stay away from. If you mean taking action to mean violence, that is something different.
Guru Gobind Singh said ‘All methods of redressing a wrong having failed, it’s pious and just to raise the sword.’
How many methods do Sikhs these days try before (metaphorically or not) raising the sword?
Even if a Sikh isn’t shocked by these events we should each be concerned that anybody could stoop this low.
Shinda Ji, this post is third party knowledge and is not doing anything to help the situation, so it really isn’t that necessary.
I don’t mean to give you a hard time Shinda Ji, I have respect for you. Just think of me like an older brother or an uncle. Sometimes an uncle gives tough love.
whaaaaaaaaaaat from
Made Monday, 21 of August , 2006 at 5:26 pm
ahahha wtfffffffffffff malatav cocktales, blowing up cars. These guys think ther James Bond. I wonder how long it took them searching on the net to build that bomb. It be jokes if England police searched ther computer files n stuff, give them a terrorism charge.
veerji
vaheguru ji ka khalsa vaheguru ji ki fateh
all i can say singh u might live far away from us englandwale but u hit the nail on the head. these ss/nang campwale always play the victims and as for mrsikhnetwale his a joke to the 3ho jatha. his never meet any of the gursikhs jatha who are agianst the ss camp or nang camp as it is better knwn as am aware his meet these jokers for ss/nangcampwale last year just becus the took him around london on a free ride his their mates. totally saddened by the response of ppl like him his firends are more important than sikhi and rehit
ppl r forgetting the REAL victims of this the inocent sisters whos faith in sikhi as been shaken and whos little sons have go off the path of sikhi and their sons are endding up on the dance floors of england instead of the charan of guru ji
take care bro
keep on fighting
akaal hi akaal
the violence used is unacceptable in this case.
But im just as shocked at how people are willing to right of blatant violations of sikh conduct by this camp and abuse of sisters, which has been published in UK newspapers, and press releases/statments given out by most major jathebandi’s. Also the organizers have admitted in a tape recorded meeting that some of this stuff did go on and they will take steps to stop it and remove the people that are responsible, but they have not done anything which they are on the record for saying.
But people are able to say, they are ‘CHARDI KALA’ ppl running the camp and nothing is wrong and it is a great camp going on.
Am i missing something?
Everyone is attacking the violence used, as should be. But aside from the violence, please look at the camp objectively
UK singhwale
I don’t know what your agenda is, but your slander will only hurt you.
First of all there is no 3HO jetha. I don’t know why people keep saying this. Why do people have to divide and label? 3HO is an organization for promoting healthy happy and holy lives amongst all people. It’s not a ‘Sikh’ or ‘panthic’ organization.
Secondly, the slander I’m referring to is calling Gurumustuk Singh Ji a joke. If you were the dust of his feet you would be blessed. He’s a totally hard working sevadar who does everything for the unity of the panth and still gets attacked.
If anybody in the ‘internet realm’ knew him personally, they would know that he’s very humble, very serviceful, and all about unity and peace in the world. It’s an extremely low blow by anybody, any where, at any time, to take a shot at Gurumustuk. Sikhnet was the first Sikh website and set the precedent by which all other Sikh websites follow. MrSikhnet is the most popular Sikh blog, which inspired most other Sikh blogs. Gurumustuk has done more seva for the panth than we can count in a reasonable time and I have personally met people who began growing their hair and practicing Sikh ways because of Gurumustuk’s efforts (Sikhnet, blog, etc.)
Another amazing sevadar is Sukha Singh Ji. People have also told me about how their lives have changed from his seva (translations of hukamnamas, katha, etc.) Sukha Singh has been involved in this camp and so has Gurumustuk. All the people I’ve met associated with the camp are some of the greatest sangat I’ve known. Why should I take the word of people on the internet who write mostly slander and hearsay over GurSikhs that I know and have been inspired by?
These attacks are a display of desperation by those who wish they had some kind of power. Flirting always happens amongst young men and women. Those who are new to Sikhi might not know that it isn’t appropriate in a Sikh camp. Likewise there’s always going to be people of a different element in a large group of people. I’m talking about camp sevadars or others who seem to be giving bad advice. Their mistakes don’t warrant the attacks on the others. You don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.
It’s such a waste of time by all of us to spend any time in negative thinking.
I wrote it on Gurumustuk’s blog, but I’ll write it here again: ‘WaheGuru Ji Ka Khalsa!’
The Khalsa belongs to WaheGuru! WaheGuru will judge the actions of all of us. We could trust that God is in charge and focus our time on the Guru, or we could try to get everybody to be a Sikh in the exact same way as us. Where is the faith, the understanding, the compassion, the wisdom, and the bravery shown by Guru Nanak?
Tara Singh from
Made Monday, 21 of August , 2006 at 11:28 pm
I think that Shinda Singh has written a very objective article on this issue. A lot of people who have absolutely no idea of what the issue is are making blanket statements on this. It is either black or white for them. The Niddar crew like to play the victim in front of those who know nothing about these issues. I am just a little disappointed at Mr. Sikhnet’s attitude on this whole thing. He seems to have already come to a judgment on whose fault it is without knowing anything on this issue.
But I guess I don’t blame him. Ever since Kamalroop and the crew came to the summer solstice this year, he seems to have befriended him. Everyone one who knows Kamalroop from back home know how he has stalked, harassed, and sexually molested young Sikh girls which for some strange reason is being overlooked by certain bloggers. If Sikhs are now raising their voice against such people, they are condemned by Mr. Sikhnet as somehow starting a smear campaign against these innocent helpless victims whose only crime is to have different views (obvious sarcasm!). Yet if you look at their websites (http://www.sarbloh.info/ and http://www.shastarvidiya.org/) they do nothing but do Nindiya and lie about other Sikhs. Furthermore, on their website they even challenge respected members of the Sikh community to violent duals which they refer to as “HaR ToR challenge” which translates to ‘Bone breaking challenge’. Yet these people are still considered the innocent victims of a smear campaign.
I think that we need to wait a few days because making anymore judgments.
anonymous from
Made Tuesday, 22 of August , 2006 at 12:12 am
honestly shinda who are u trying to kid, your post totally condones the attacks, im not saying that dancing in gurudwaras is alrite or making “lude” comments to bibian but to get attacked for it.. violence to achieve a particular means when all else has failed completely does not apply to this.. this is the stupidest and one of the most embarrasing moments for sikh youths.. and ive been to a sikhi camp before.. not in the UK but in canada and similar **** goes on at EVERY camp and thats a fact.. these kids arent into sikhi and if a few people are trying to get them into it.. there will be a few bumps across the road but at the end of the day there doing something and the majority of us aint.. whoever did it aint better than no muslims attacking us.. its disgusting
narinder singh from 
Made Tuesday, 22 of August , 2006 at 1:17 am
Shinda Singh great post and nice to be on a blog where we can discuss this issue without getting our comment censored as on MrSikhnet blog. Gurmustak Singh may be a great guy and has done some great sewa through Sikhnet but by backing the camp people he has undone all that. His bias is clear to see, his blog is being used to promote Nangs such as Kamalroop. He attended the camp last year and was all buddy buddy with the camp organisers. For such a guy to act like he’s neutral in this matter is a joke. He knows full well that there have been serious issues with the camp which the mainstream Sikh community has been trying to resolve yet he still feigns ignorance and tries to show this issue as between ‘fanatics’ and ‘chardhi kala’ camp organisers. All the pro-camp comments made on Mr Sikhnet blog are from the camp organisers. Gurmustak Singh has blocked comments which criticise the camp organisers. A few of the comments are from Sikhs outside the UK who have no idea what has been going on in the camp and therefore are making comments supportive of the camp.
Prabhu Singh is Gurmustka Singhs brother so you can understand his singing his praises!
neway from
Made Tuesday, 22 of August , 2006 at 4:06 am
No desire to slander anyone, but if ‘Kamalroop’ is involved in this camp, I wouldnt support it in a million yrs. Through personal experience and hearing from other girls that have spoke to him directly (for long periods of time), he is not the type of person we can trust our daughters/sister w/. He has tried luring bibian and has been recorded saying extremely offensive and hurtful things
Also, like otpreka said, people are noticing that the violence is wrong but aren’t saying anything about the camp. Someone mentioned today that ’singhs’ leading the camp are so ?shameless? that they joke about Damdami Taksal having a problem with homosexuality. Doing such disgusting ninda of such a great panthic jatha is illnatured to say the least, they’re ignorant…
narinder singh from
Made Tuesday, 22 of August , 2006 at 4:18 am
Kamalroop and Sukha Singh attended the 3HO summer solstice camp where Sukha Singh called Bhai Bachittar Singh a ‘colourful midget’. It’s sad that after Harbhajan Singh Yogi’s passing the 3HO people are pretty much losing their way and making contacts with Nangs and promoting them. I’m sure if Yogiji was still around he would have warned them to stay away from the Nangs. Seems like a deal was done, Sukha Singh got a free plane ticket to attend the summer solstice camp and in return Sukha Singh is promoting ‘white tantric yoga’ as a part of Sikhi on his blog.
The camp organisers seem to be going ape over the events and some campie is describing the attacks as same as 9/11!
Inderjit Kaur from
Made Tuesday, 22 of August , 2006 at 6:37 am
Prabhu Ji you wrote: “the slander I’m referring to is calling Gurumustuk Singh Ji a joke. If you were the dust of his feet you would be blessed. He’s a totally hard working sevadar who does everything for the unity of the panth and still gets attacked.
If anybody in the ‘internet realm’ knew him personally, they would know that he’s very humble, very serviceful, and all about unity and peace in the world. It’s an extremely low blow by anybody, any where, at any time, to take a shot at Gurumustuk. Sikhnet was the first Sikh website and set the precedent by which all other Sikh websites follow. MrSikhnet is the most popular Sikh blog, which inspired most other Sikh blogs. Gurumustuk has done more seva for the panth than we can count in a reasonable time and I have personally met people who began growing their hair and practicing Sikh ways because of Gurumustuk’s efforts (Sikhnet, blog, etc.)”
Veerji understandably you feel very passionate about your friend and wish to defend him and make everyone understand that he does not mean any harm, he does a lot of seva and is generally a unique Gursikh. I have only met Gurumustuk once before and briefly but he certainly does come across as humble and with a lot of passion to serve the Sikh Community.
However you have to realise that the very same passion you have at defending this Gursikh, many others in the UK have that same pyar and passion for the people who are being slandered and incorrectly accused of these attacks.
Does it not hurt us when people like yourselves, the Sikh Student camp organisers and others accuse sevadaars of the other camps as fanatical, terrorists, narrorw-minded, blinded by grudges etc etc… These people are also increadibly hard-working deadicated sevadaars who work day and night to serve others and spread the word of SIkhi across the globe. These are the people you blindly accuse. These are the people you are blaming for these mindless and unacceptable attacks. Who are you to think so low of these people? Is this not your personal grudges blinding your vision?
I apologise if i have come across harsh, this was not my intention however it does hurt to see Sikhs attack other Sikhs under the banner of “love and open-mindedness” Just like you are hurt my brother so are others.
As Prabhu Ji quite rightly explained: “The Khalsa belongs to WaheGuru! WaheGuru will judge the actions of all of us. We could trust that God is in charge and focus our time on the Guru, or we could try to get everybody to be a Sikh in the exact same way as us. Where is the faith, the understanding, the compassion, the wisdom, and the bravery shown by Guru Nanak?”
Please let us use this same argument for the other side and quit calling unkown individuals fanatics etc before the proof or the full story is revealed. Waheguru will judge these people also so they do not need the judgement of others.
Please forgive me for any mistakes i may have made.
May Guru Ji shower His blessings on all.
t from
Made Tuesday, 22 of August , 2006 at 8:16 am
shinda is the peoples champion, he gives people a voice, where they wouldnt otherwise have one (do to censorship)
narinder singh from
Made Tuesday, 22 of August , 2006 at 11:53 am
Yeah Cheerz Shinda Singh. Gurmustak Singh’s just deleted the comment that had a link to this blog. Obviously a total hypocrite when he claims that he is neutral.
thank you for highlighting the issue for what it is.
every comment i’ve posted on mrsikhnets blog has not been allowed through the net. if you were neutral the least you can do is allow both sides of the story to be told.
how you have told it is how it is. i was actually surprised that your not from the uk after reading how you’ve got everything down to a tee.
this has been happening for too long. hopefully its fixed now, and all these people going its “chardikala” may be right, but whats not acceptable is our sisters being harrassed and nothing being done about it by the organisers in the past.
people need to realise although it happens it every camp, it is not acceptable at a place where they are supposed to be promoting sikhi. it has to be addressed and not brushed aside.
sukha singh is a nice guy, he is doing good seva. but he has made mistakes in the past as we all have, all thats needed is for people to realise that people DO make mistakes in their actions and that we are not Sant Baba’s. its almost like he has a cult following of people.
3HO people are amazing, but many times they need the strictness in their rehit (because they love their Guru, not because its ritualistic or fanatical) that puratan (oldschool) gursikhs had.
ive made hundreds of mistakes also in my life but where something is wrong, we need to call it wrong as a community. by not acting or stopping people from acting, we are part of the problem.
peace and love to all
Narinder Singh Ji, be a man of character and stop attacking people personally!
Exaggerations, lies and rumors really does not show much character.
I will outline these things which you have done so that you can be sure to communicate with character next time. Our Guru is bani. Bani is the word, our words should be trustworthy, compassionate, and should reflect God and represent our Guru.
Exaggeration: “backing the camp people he has undone all that”
Backing a Sikh camp which he enjoyed and others enjoy does not undo his life’s work of Seva!
Rumor: “Seems like a deal was done.”
There was no deal. I think people like to create controversy for their own enjoyment. Whatever people think there’s no secret dealings inside 3HO. Maybe people know that type of behavior from other jethas, but 3HO isn’t a Sikh jetha and they have no control over the people associated with 3HO. Sikhs are all equal, all Sikhs associated with 3HO are on equal footing.
Lying: “Sukha Singh is promoting ‘white tantric yoga’ as a part of Sikhi on his blog”
This simply was not done.
Inderjit Kaur Ji, I can understand that you don’t wish to see your friends (I believe the organizers of other camps?) attacked. I don’t think Gurumustuk every placed the blame on anybody. He didn’t say the organizers of other camps did it. His hypothesis is that it was a group of people who oppose the camp and have taken it to extreme measures. This doesn’t mean that all the people who oppose the camp are that extreme.
My point is that those who police other people and reduce Sikhi to ‘a set of rules.’ Will never understand the universal message of Guru Nanak. They will never understand the humility of Guru Nanak. They will never have the kind of faith it requires to trust that God can take care of things better than they can.
I’m amazed that ‘Sikhs’ will write on public forums (the internet) about the misdeeds of somebody else, and name them personally!
Who here wants all their mistakes listed on the internet and their names given with those mistakes?
Nobody!
No matter how much somebody thinks the camp is wrong, they should just get over it. Clearly the organizers have taken strides to improve on what they can. It’s never going to be perfect and it should not be shut down because others have a problem with it.
Since I know Gurumustuk Singh Ji personally, I will tell you that his only agenda, is to try and help people keep an open mind. He gets attacked by people who don’t have an open mind. If he were to follow the ‘dictates’ of all the different fanatic elements, he wouldn’t achieve anything. One fanatic tells him that ’such and such is WRONG,’ and another says ‘NO the other way is WRONG.’ All he ever says is “keep an open mind.” He even wrote that he didn’t allow comments from both sides of the argument and yet people think he’s unfairly censoring. If you want to write trash (slander, speculation, etc.) write it somewhere else. I don’t allow negative comments on my blog either. People go to my blog to see happy things and I decided to keep it that way.
I pray for peace amongst all those who have lost their temper and have spoken, writen, or acted without integrity.
May the Khalsa prevail and it’s wisdom be exhaulted.
WaheGuru Ji Ka Khalsa, WaheGuru Ji Ki Fateh!
neway from
Made Tuesday, 22 of August , 2006 at 2:58 pm
No one should support nangs, 3HO should be higher than that, some of those 3HO singhs are so pure and strict in rehat, such great amrit vela and bani/simran/bana rehat, they could teach US something, but this is giving them a bad name…
You just should NOT ever support people that are talking **** about other jathay and behaving like nangs. Why should any panthic jatha support the nangs? wake upppp sleeping people
narinder singh from
Made Tuesday, 22 of August , 2006 at 3:52 pm
Prabhu Singh,
Relax Bro! I suppose now you know what it feels like to be slandered!
Far be it for me a simple Punjabi Sikh to teach a White Sikh English but get yourself a dictionary my friend and look up the word ’seems’. Look at Mr Sikhnet blog which contains ‘katha’ of Sukha Singh and Nang kamalroop and then look at Sukha Singh’s blog and his promotion of White Tantric Yoga. I hope you now understand what I meant.
>>He even wrote that he didn’t allow comments from both sides of the argument and yet people think he’s unfairly censoring>Backing a Sikh camp which he enjoyed and others enjoy does not undo his life’s work of Seva!
narinder singh from
Made Tuesday, 22 of August , 2006 at 3:54 pm
>>He even wrote that he didn’t allow comments from both sides of the argument and yet people think he’s unfairly censoring>Backing a Sikh camp which he enjoyed and others enjoy does not undo his life’s work of Seva!
narinder singh from
Made Tuesday, 22 of August , 2006 at 3:56 pm
Sorry problems with the comments
Prabhu Singh said
He even wrote that he didn’t allow comments from both sides of the argument and yet people think he’s unfairly censoring>Backing a Sikh camp which he enjoyed and others enjoy does not undo his life’s work of Seva!
yes if he chooses to support a camp that has caused controversy amongst Sikhs in UK solely because he is friends with the organisers then he is undoing the sewa he did before
Tara Singh from
Made Tuesday, 22 of August , 2006 at 4:03 pm
I respect 3ho Sikhs and in particular Gurmustuk Singh. I think that he is going a great seva. But going as far as supporting Kamalroop and the Niddar crew is not going to build bridges in the Panth. If anything, it is going to tear down bridges. I would have had absolutely no problem if Veerjee Gurmustuk Singh Jee was neutral in all of this, BUT he has clearly shown through his censorship that he is not neutral when it comes to the Nangs and the mainstream Sikhs. He has clearly shown his bias in favour of the Nangs by siding with them on all fronts. On his blog he censured replies which did not go in favour of the Nangs, but on the other hand he allowed all the posts which were in favour of the nangs. Even the link to Shinda Singh’s blog that was on his page has now been edited out. This is not neutrality by any stretch of the imagination.
I don’t think that Singh Sahib Yogi Bhajjan Jee (whom I respect very much) would have supported the 3ho getting close to the Nangs.
Cincinnati from 
Made Tuesday, 22 of August , 2006 at 4:25 pm
Stop being so philosophical ( i don know if thats a word) and start typing like ur talking to ppl instead of writing an essay. were not proffesers.
i skimmed most of it, all i know is some ppl got in a fight in uk and it has something to do with niddar singh.
that one line summmed up ur whole essay
Cincinnati from
Made Tuesday, 22 of August , 2006 at 4:29 pm
ok
now i just skimmed through the replies and ive got to say their stupider then the post
narinder singh from
Made Tuesday, 22 of August , 2006 at 5:59 pm
Cincinnati
Go to sleep sonny it’s well past your bedtime
Randeep Singh Somal from
Made Wednesday, 23 of August , 2006 at 11:07 am
Sat sri akal ji,
Thank you for allowing this thread to carry on. I have tried posting on mrsikhnet but the postings are either not allowed or the thread is deleted.
It’s easy for people to laugh at us in the UK and dismiss this all as immature rivalry.
My cousin went to the camp a few years ago and was upset at the attitude of not only some campers but some of the sevadars. Sevadars like Kamalroop and Bhupinder (Bob) were very intimidating and blunt in their conversation to my cousin in an un-Sikh like way. Members of my family were angered at the actions of people professing to be Sikh sevadars, but as usual no one wants to take the issue forward and the people knuckle down, accept it and carry on. Being an 18 year old kid not that interested in Sikhi, I just dismissed the incidents as the usual boy-girl things that happen at uni.
But a couple of years on, being more wise, I now understand the dangers of allowing certain individuals to carry on running the camp. Images of sikhs can be destroyed by the likes of kamalroop and bob getting away with their attitudes. They may seem like simple personal attitudes of individuals but they are harmful in the sikh camp arena.
Things are not being blown out of proportion. If no one takes an issue seriously than someone needs to shout and unfortunately that’s what’s happened. Izzat is a powerful thing in Punjabi families and people die to uphold their izzat. I don’t think some people fully understand this. When a sister is felt threatened or made to feel uncomfortable by a guy then the brothers step in, this is how it works in Punjabi familie whether you agree it’s PC or not.
At least now the camp organisers will ban certain individuals with the running of the camps, clean up their disciplinary procedures and select more mature Sikh sevadars.
just heard the nangs r still at the camp one is sodhi and guv( the one who calles mata bhag kaur a *******) there more will get more info later.
there about 60 campers there all holding hands 
soo much for banning the nangs from the camp such a shame the organisers are trying fool the sangat all the time. these ppl cant change or are they willing to change ohh well guru ji will make truth and justice win at the end
akaaal hi akaal
narinder singh from
Made Wednesday, 23 of August , 2006 at 5:53 pm
Gurmustak Singh is either incredibly naive or he’s so deeply influenced by the Nangs that he might as well start to be counted as one. Either way it doesn’t say much about someone who is supposed to have done so much sewa in the last decade.
sabaa from
Made Wednesday, 23 of August , 2006 at 7:05 pm
Its not fair to **** on mr sikhnet..he’s doing what hes doing..truth is people come across as being two faced..most of us know them mans from one side while others see them from another…most of us have been following and watching what they do for years while others just watching what they do for the last little while…end of the day the truth will expose itself and it aint worth the time to try and expose it for people…lay the cards out and then let the peices fall where they may…do your part warn your sisters…do your part and don’t follow suit..do your part and things be all right
neway from
Made Thursday, 24 of August , 2006 at 3:26 am
haha, thats funny. they call mata bhag kaur a ******* and taksali singhs ***. these nangs are like a blend of both. Neway, it seems like everyone knows about kamalroop, bob, etc., and their aslee roop, this shouldnt be an issue to argue over and people should understand why the ‘violence ‘ came about. end of story, the people propagating violence against camp ’sevadars may have really good reasons for doing so
BritishSingh from
Made Thursday, 24 of August , 2006 at 4:25 am
I have some friends involved in running the camp and I can probably vouch for them as being commited passionate individuals. Yes, some camp organisers were misguided and have been tarnished with the nang brush. You got to realise sometimes people end up in the wrong sangat and can be stuck with them for a while. Even when they move away from the bad sangat the stigma can still remain attached. Sukha, Sodhi etc are not bad Singhs but had ended up in the wrong crowd which they are trying to move away from. We all make mistakes when choosing friends, I’ve been there.
Moving forward, the camp needs to have more authority and rehatvaan Sikhs as sewdars, there’s a weakness of sikhi in the camp organization which shows in duration of camp. I went to the camp last year and would not really recommend or bother with it again. It was too laid back and childish for my liking and portrayed a irresponsible image of the gursikhs. Although I am not sure about this violence which has occurred, it’s pretty pathetic as the wrong people have been attacked. No one seems to have the balls to confront the real root of the problem which really boils down to a small number of individuals like kamalrop, bob, bahadur, yankee, balkar, ity who I believe are now banned anyway.
OMG from
Made Thursday, 24 of August , 2006 at 8:45 am
Although I don’t know Kamalroop personally, but I think that the biggest assole of them all has to be Bahadur Singh. That guy has the most anti Sikh views I have ever seen. His writings are full of hate against our traditions, and great Gursikhs and Shaheeds throughout Sikh history. Furthermore, Bahadur has even created Sikhs who are now hybrid Shia-Sikhs. These so-called Sikhs now go to Moharam to participate in the jaloos of beating themselves like the other Shias. Sad really. If this guy is banned from Sikh students camp, then maybe they are making some progress.
narinder singh from
Made Thursday, 24 of August , 2006 at 8:50 am
British Singh
You might be right that some of the sewadars might be very passionate but in a situation where they have allowed the Nangs to infiltrate the camp and mess up the lives of some very impressionable youth then that passion for sewa has damaged Sikhi. I doubt they would accept this to be the case. I am sure everyone accepts that anyone can get into bad sangat but what has really surprised me is that the organisers still have an attitude that nothing wrong was being done at the camps even when they accepted there were problems at the camp during the meeting. You say that these people are banned, this has not been made clear as in some cases the organisers are saying that these guys have stayed away from the camp solely because of the threat of violence if they came. This makes these guys to be the victims rather than instigators which they are. The camp organisers have lost a good chance to redeem themselves in the eyes of Sikhs by not publicly banning the Nangs as well as publicly distancing themselves from them.
Sikhs in the UK need to get our house in order, the types of things that we have allowed the Nangs to get away with would never have been allowed in the US or Canada. Even though we are more in number than either the Canadian or US Sikhs and more concentrated we are now being seen as a soft touch by the Nangs and their backers.
narinder singh from
Made Thursday, 24 of August , 2006 at 9:02 am
Francisco Luis alias Lalleshvari alias Bahadur Singh Nirmala is the biggest Mina in the Sikh panth at this stage. He takes his retarded ’sikhs’ with him to the Shia moharram self mutilation marches.
You can see his picture when he was a mona gora during a trip to India with the summer school of the Sikh studies course in California. He’s the pooftah in brown kurtha with moustache and beard standing on the left hand side of the 2000 trip photo
OMG from
Made Thursday, 24 of August , 2006 at 10:34 pm
Narinder Singh thanks for the info. The thing is, it’s not just his strange mutated version of Sikh-Shia hybrid beliefs that shock me. He also brings his Islamic attitude into Sikhi by trying to act like a Mulla issuing Fatwas and condemning others as non-Sikhs because they follow the Akal Takht Maryadha or other panthic Maryadhas. His views about sexuality is what disturbs me the most. To him Sikh women should look and act like *** objects. He even honours KPS Gill and other butchers as heroes while disrespecting Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindrawalay and Bhai Fauja Singh Jee as criminals who are better dead than alive.
With these views he was actually an active participant in the Sikh students camp and even had talks about how Sikh women should be removing hair on their arms!
Although he claims to be an “Amritdhari” Sikh, yet he openly admits to drinking wine, and says there is nothing wrong with it. This is not only against Sikhi but also against Shia beliefs. He tries to act like a big time scholar on Sikhi, yet he basically knows nothing about Sikhism.
Considering all of this, he definitely is the biggest assole of all the Nangs (In my humble opion).
Sikh from
Made Friday, 25 of August , 2006 at 12:26 am
I have been to 3ho camps and I have close relationships with certain 3ho inviduals. However I choose to hide my identity. I have also met kamlroop and his crew (Bob). And all i can say is to all my sisters out there please stay away from them. They are very bad news. I was just getting into sikhi then and i thought they were cool. They said going to clubs was fine eating meat was fine making sexual jokes was fine. Talking about how many times one *********** was fine.
All this was weird to me cause even though i wasn’t into sikhi i was still not used to these vulgar attitudes. And then I heard one of them go on and on in personal conversations of all the girls they had in there past before sikhi. LIke they were really proud. Sure everyones allowed to preach and speak freely. However if someone is mascarading as a sikh preacher you BETTER make sure they are not perverts in disguise. Which i truly believe these ppl are… Now that i am into sikhi (still not part of any jatha) but have my own strong convictions of sikhi..I thought it my duty to say a few words just incase some females read this blog. They need to be warned.
I have nothing to gain by defaming these ppl. I didn’t even want to post. However I felt it was important i do just incase some female read this, maybe she could be warned. Oh and i have talked to a few sikh sisters who have told me their experiences with some of this “nang” perverts. Once again i have nothing to gain by defaming these ppl. I do not wish to quarrel with anyone. I just wish to send out a warning to all those innocent sisters who might cross paths with these dangerous perverts.
Also i have a word of advice to gurumustak. You are good maan who has done seva but it seems your judgements has be severly clouded by these ppls sweet talk. Please re-consider your views on these people before they drag you down into the fire with them.
Waheguru ji ka khalsa Waheguru ji ki fateh
The pure ones belong to god and victory belongs to god. In the end these evil doers will be punished.
Randeep Singh Somal from
Made Friday, 25 of August , 2006 at 4:30 am
The real problem is the lack of authority in the camp and the sikh religion in UK. Because of that some individuals are allowed to get away with their actions. I dont go to camps or youth groups as I think theres alot of hypocrite out there in the Sikh religion today. It’s easy to wear a nice sikh outfit, where a big turban and long kirpan and talk ****. To be honest I’m sick of the hypocrisy of the young sikhs, on one side people appear on blogs as sants and on the other they act like lads out there for a good time. You mention Bob’s name to anyone and honestly who has got a positive thing to say about him? Then why is he allowed to preach in Universities, Camps etc.
Tara Singh from
Made Friday, 25 of August , 2006 at 8:24 am
Bob is one character that is Badnaam all over the western world wherever the Sikhs reside. He came to a Canadian university a few years ago giving a Talk on Sikhi. To the shock of everyone he plucked the hair on his arm and says he is not doing anything against sikhi. Such Kurahitis should not be allowed to be around the Sikh youth. Infact, I don’t think I have ever heard anything positive about bob. It’s like one after another, all these nangs are the weirdest people on the planet. We don’t have such people in Canada or US. How the heck did the UK produce so many Nangs?
narinder singh from
Made Friday, 25 of August , 2006 at 10:43 am
A few months ago Bob (Bhupinder Bhasin) was trying to take over the Shepherd’s Bush Gurdwara with his Nang mates. I’ve noticed a lot of nangs now going to that Gurdwara.
???????????????????????????
its all very well dissing sikh student camp but why not read a true account of a penji that was actually at camp! click on the link and see for yourself. i know for a fact she has more to say….so check it out
Guru Nanak Dev ji never judged anyone but helped show them the true light through pyar….weird how much nindia chugli goes on and yet we are meant to be the new generation Khalsa panth….I dnt think Guru Gobind Singh ji would expect this from his KHALSA
narinder singh from
Made Monday, 28 of August , 2006 at 10:59 am
Let’s take this from another angle. It was due to those you call ‘nindya chugli’ of some people that the camp has CHANGED. Do not make the mistake of thinking that the camp was this year would have been like that without proactive people taking a stance and getting the sewadars to make changes. The camp organisers were on their best behaviour, none of the putting blood on Nishan Sahib and the lewd chat with female campers. They knew that the eyes of the Sikhs were on them as well as some people who went solely to make sure that the friends of the sewadars who were at the centre of bad behaviour were banned. So instead of singing the praises of the sewadars who were literally FORCED to change their ways and make the camp into a typical SIKHI camp and not an anything goes camp as in previous years maybe you might like to thank the people who were instrumental in forcing the change. Oh btw they were the ‘nindya/chugli’ wale Khalsa incase you didn’t know.
Randeep Singh Somal from
Made Tuesday, 29 of August , 2006 at 6:18 am
Kaur Sister,
I am glad the camp went well this year. It is only because of the external pressure that the Camp sewadars got their act together. I am further glad that people like kamalroop and bob were not allowed to attend the camp.
KhalsaSingh from
Made Friday, 1 of September , 2006 at 10:59 am
Without getting into an argument on sides,
KhalsaSingh from
Made Friday, 1 of September , 2006 at 11:26 am
Without getting into an arguments on sides, lets put this into a simple perspective:
1. The camp organisers themselves are fairly neutral individuals and for want for a better term: “open minded” hence, one could argue susceptible to certain groups taking advantage of them. KEY POINT: It seems pointless to attack (physically or otherwise) the actually organisers of the camp - all criticisms so far concern other individuals who happened to be at the camp, invited or otherwise, nonetheless were not the camp organisers themselves, so it is absurd and not to mention downright stupid to violently attack them.
2. “Do not make the mistake of thinking that the camp was this year would have been like that without proactive people taking a stance and getting the sewadars to make changes.” - proactive action is certainly merited, but ‘threats’ and violence in the manner in which exhibits hardly count as proactive action - let’s stop trying to justify this most unsikh of acts.
For the record, I am not a ‘camp’ guy so to be honest have no personal feelings or inclinations about what camp represents what, I am however a Sikh and a proud one at that too and it causes me grave concern to learn about the increasing levels of Sikh on Sikh violence that seems to be kicking off in my country aping what has been happening in BC, Canada for quite sometime and frankly is nothing but a disgrace (Shinda Singh, whilst you have tried to present a balanced view, the reality is that you simply beating on your “Ah, you gotta love Toronto” scenario from a few months back which adds nothing of value to the issue at hand).
From the foregoing posts and what is available on various other sites, here’s what, as a relative outsider to the “camp” scenes appears to be what has happened:
- BOSS and Khalsa Camps have been running with relative competition for sometime, if this upsets the “ekta” lobby then I make no apology, even a cursory look at commentary from their respective attendees stands testimony to this.
- The Sikh Student Camp, as a new alternative to the long standing BOSS camps has seen some significant uptake from the youth market, much like Khalsa Camp did when it first started as a parallel to BOSS events…so like in Business, ‘market share’ has been wrestled away from the once monopolistic market in the UK Sikh Youth Camp sector…(!)
- Without going into specific, it is plain to see that beyond that face value lip service of “ekta” ALL three camps have their own power politics at play against each other and between themselves. The Sikh Student Camp was largely exposed to many ex-BOSS (mainly Taksali)and ex-AKJ (Khalsa Camp) individuals (most of whom are either part of or affiliated with the Neo-Nihang movement in the UK) and this has been largely what caused the main issues for its competitors.
- NOW, any fool can see that (a) all three have a clear relationship with each other through the inviduals involved, since all come from a certain cliche which over the past decade has broken broadly into the separate groups (b) all three have got serious issues with each other, even though two of the camps may be giving the appearence of ‘unity’ for purposes of ‘cleansing’ the youth circle of the now infamous ‘unsikh antics’ of the third, rather like oligopolist market collusion! (c) the inviduals behind the now infamous comments and events at the Sikh Student camp are hardly innocent young children, it is common knowledge that they have for years been tagging the line with ‘questionable t-shirts’, ‘mantras of a certain variety’, ‘disrespect of the keshas’ etc in a bid simply to “tick off the fanatics” - nonetheless, that hardly equates to reason for violence in a most unsikhlike manner, but let’s get real and not playing the ‘we’re clean as white’ game!
In conclusion - let’s take a step away and look at the big picture - the lot of you are bringing a very shameful name to the Sikh Community which holds a very esteemed position and reputation in the UK courtesy of the efforts of the earlier generations and I for one really do not want for this to be reversed and moved into the territory akin to that of Sikh in Vancouver BC which is no different to what currently is the case with the Muslim population in the UK.
Gur Fateh!
Khalsa Singh.
Randeep Singh Somal from
Made Wednesday, 6 of September , 2006 at 11:07 am
Has anyone been arrested in relation to the alleged violence? I’m beginging to smell something fishy from the Camp oragnisers. Did the violence actually happen?
narinder singh from
Made Wednesday, 6 of September , 2006 at 2:09 pm
I doubted it from the beginning to be honest. Especially the ‘eye surgeon who wonmt be able to operate agin! pass the tissues someone! I wouldn’t put it past the ’sewadars’ to have tried a stunt to gain some sympathy. According to wannabe nang gurmustak’s blog someone was followed and arrested but nothing after that. Sounds like a put on job to me.
Tara Singh from
Made Monday, 11 of September , 2006 at 2:22 pm
Bhai Narinder Singh Jee, I wouldn’t call Gurumastak a nang wanabe. I just think he has been misinformed by those Nangs. In any case, I dont buy the eye sergeon story either. Sounds too made up.
pyara from
Made Tuesday, 12 of September , 2006 at 6:58 am
I think the violence thingy was made up or exagerated to hype the camp! I mean, where’s the 10 year old boy who nearly got killed? What are the police doing about this, cos this aint some minor offence.The “only amritdhari surgeon” in UK who supposedly cant practice anymore was at the camp making sweet cups of tea. On Gurmastak Singhs blog (mrsikhnet.com) it was said that they know who carried out these alleged attacks. So come on then, who carried out these supposed attacks.
Face it the camp went well this year, because the camp organisers had to get their act together, no doubt they deserve credit for a successfull camp. But I have my doubts about all these allegations of violence flying around the internet. I know im being a blunt git! It’s about time we really found out the truth!
KaUr from
Made Sunday, 17 of September , 2006 at 3:52 pm
Sikhi camp waz sooooo amazing this year.. people can say what ever they want about it.. it really has changed my life..
virtualkaur from
Made Thursday, 16 of November , 2006 at 7:14 pm
yo man been camp last 4 years man, n its gets better every timeeee!! so u guys can all sit here talkin about camp when th people who have th longest posts havent even bin to th camp! lol jokes! BIG UP SS CAMP! 
Gupt Kaur from
Made Wednesday, 26 of March , 2008 at 5:55 am
i came across this blog post about the uk sikh student camp.
i attended last year in august 2007 at chigwell.
i must admit i had a fun and enjoyable time. but i was looking for something more than fun and having a laugh.
at the camp my friend was having a discussion with a female camp sevadar about takin amrit. my friend cuts her eyebrows and shaves and so although she wanna take amrit she has problem. the bibi sevadar in the dorms said “dont worry. the kesh on your head is the main thing. go and take amrit.” my friend felt really bad and when i heard i sed that was totally wrong. kesh is kesh whether on head or face or legs.
in q&a my other friend asked do amritdaris have to marry amritdaris and the nihung sevadar at the camp replied dat you can marry who want and they dont have to be into sikhi or even be amritdari. just hearin dat made me not wanna go again to sikh student camp. i am not amritdari but know that a amritdari should marry amritdari and keep rehit.
last thing was that this man called BOB SINGH came to the camp for 3 days. but when he did chaur sahib the other sevadaar grabbed the chaur from his hand as if they didnt want him to be in public view. i later found out that this Bob is the one who funds the camp but they didnt want him to be seen by campers or mix with campers coz he was supposed to be BANNED from camp. i found it strange how u ban the man who funds the camp???
i was told that this Bob is the one who in London promotes Niddar, Snatanism, and says stuff like its okay for amritdaris to go clubbin, take off kakars, drink, eat meat, have girlfriends and he has hit on few girls and got in trouble.
for these reasons me and my friends are not goin back and just wanna keep away. like i said it was fun and a laugh and everyone was friendly (sometimes over friendly with huggs) but the sikhi side was not what i expected.
thanks